Who is the Latin guru?

Hazz's picture

I recall Paul saying Alex is but I have not seen him in a while, maybe I will try over at AB.

Anyways, I have been trying to get a line down for a Latin salsa tune now for ohhhh what 2 months and it is driving me nuts. The guy producing the tune likes what I have done but it seems to be missing "something". All the other bassist have either given up or decided to not even try (most of them won't even attempt any Latin style tunes) but I aint gonna let this thing beat me.

If ya think you can offer advice I could send a link to the tune.

Hazz

Paul Warren's picture

Barney Brazitis plays a lot

Barney Brazitis plays a lot of latin stuff. So does Patrick Pfeiffer. Those are the only two I know of.

Latin seems pretty hard to me. The beat is weird/different. I think there are some uncommon time sigs and fast tempos. Maybe we'll do Rio Gals next time and I'll have to do some fast learning.

Hazz's picture

I thought it had some

I thought it had some different time sigs but this tune is in 4/4, at least that is what I was told, and the tempo is 110. Hmmmm?

Hazz
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BoH's picture

The Clave

The clave (I think it is pronounced clah-vay) is the key. I really don't understand it, but Barney can explain it to you. It is what makes most Latin beats distinctive. PM him at AB. He can help.

BoH

Bo


You don't love me, you just love my FINGERSTYLE!
Peavey T40; SX/Squier P-bass; Spector Legend 5
Roland Bass 30 Cube

Hazz's picture

Thanks Bo. I was going to

Thanks Bo. I was going to but have not gotten to it yet. Been workin on a new tune for some one today.

Hazz

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My 2 cents

Whatup Hazz? How's it going pal? Haven't have time to stop by lately, sorry...
I believe I posted 2 lessons on AB regarding major and minor tumbao. Those lines are mostly used for "guajiras" and "cha-chas". Maybe they can give you some light.
I strongly advice that you purchase 2 books:

1 - Funkifying the Clave (Lincoln Goines and Rob Ameen)
2 - The Salsa Handbook for Piano & Ensemble (Rebeca Mauleon)

There's a catch on most latin non-Brazilian rhythms: The Clave.
If you don't understand what the clave is you won't get the concept, but once you get it, the whole thing opens in your head. You'll then be able to create any salsa line as you wish. When I'm teaching I realize how tough it can be for many people to think music in a syncopated way, and you won't feel confortable in a polyrhythmic enviroment at the beginning, but it's definitely worth trying.

Hope this helps,

@lex.

BoH's picture

I knew once you saw this

I knew once you saw this you'd chime in. Any audio files on the net that demonstrate the clave? Also, aren't there a couple of different ways to play a clave?

BoH

Bo


You don't love me, you just love my FINGERSTYLE!
Peavey T40; SX/Squier P-bass; Spector Legend 5
Roland Bass 30 Cube

There are 4 claves:

There are 4 claves:
Rumba clave 2-3
Rumba clave 3-2
Son clave 2-3
Son clave 3-2

These are going to set rules for everyone else, including the piano, horns, congas and timbales.
And even when the clave isn't there it IS there. It's a feeling that we latins are more or less born with, I think. Hard to explain.
Go to youtube and type "Rebeca Mauleon", she's a great teacher and I'm sure you'll find something interesting.
There's a bunch of rules that follow the clave, like:

Bass never plays the first tempo, and you always play the 5th of the chord lower then the root, you may choose to octave the whole thing up, but keep the 5-1 thing.
The tumba only plays in the 3 of the clave. The clave may reverse itself in the middle of the song and the feeling of the song changes.
Really tough to explain.
Let me know what you find.

@lex.

Hazz's picture

Yep, there is no Clave in

Yep, there is no Clave in this tune and all I have is a piano track. I do have one track with all the instruments they are using but they have the vocals and piano so hot it is hard to hear anything else.

Also, the bass "idea" I mention in the other response has me playing the first tempo.

Again, thanks for the info and hopefully I can get them a bass track they can use. They are nice guys and I was the only bassist who would agree to try a Latin tune for them so we shall see.

Worst thing to come of it is more knowledge ans skill for me. ;^)

Hazz

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From the piano you take the

From the piano you take the clave. Did you have a chance to see Rebeca?

Hazz's picture

Not yet. I was going to do

Not yet. I was going to do that today. I am still feelin' under the weather so while the kids are looking for their eggs I will check out the vids.

I tried to use just the piano track. It did work better but there are shyte load of changes in it and with me being me (my inner lead guitarist tried to come out)I tried to keep up with every single note. Then I decided to mellow out a bit and something just clicked.

Hazz

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Hazz's picture

Thanks Alex. I got in touch

Thanks Alex. I got in touch with Barney B over at AB and just like I was thinking, the guy who wrote the tune really has not a clue about Latin music.

What got me thinking was they said/wanted a Salsa style tune but then the guy who wrote it send me a midi of an "idea" for the bass. It was no where close to a Salsa.

I will check out the books you recommended and you lessons over at AB for the next time I get to do some Latin stuff.

I told them I will give it one more go so we shall see what comes of it.

Thanks again
Hazz

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I see

Lots of tunes out there have a latin feeling, or just a syncopated feeling but don't follow the rules of salsa. That's cool, music is free. Rules are made to be broken and I was just explaining what's in the book. Get the up-beat feel and day dream a bass line that will shake boots. That's our job anyway right?

@lex.

Hazz's picture

I did come up with a

I did come up with a different line but I tried something first, I moved my original bass line so the root fell on the fourth beat. It seemed to work better but I still tried something completely different and that seems to work even better.

Hazz

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Paul Warren's picture

Hi Alex. Nice to see you

Hi Alex. Nice to see you back. Hope you're Ok.

Patrick Pfeiffer said the same thing about Latin style is general. He said don't play on the down beat, syncopate and use root and 5th a lot. He didn't mention using the 5th below the root so that's a good tip. Otherwose it sounds like some good 'rule of thumb' advice.

How about time sigs? Some of the Latin I've listened to seems to be 2/4 time. Is this possible or am I being fooled by the arrangements? Are there other unusual time sigs used?

Wazzup Paul

I'm well, my friend, how have you been?

I'll start saying this:

It's easier than it's sounding here. The salsa feeling is something you get just listening to it. I actually had a bit of a hard time to figure out what the rules are, because it's like: "Play what you feel".
Yes, the 5th usually is below, that gives everyone in the band a feeling of security. This is actually the single biggest difference I notice when I see latin bass players playing salsa and non-latin players playing it. Non-latin guys do the 5th above all the time and although it sounds good to everyone else if there's a cuban lady dancing there she will say: "There's something wrong!"
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Time sigs:

That's the best question you could ask!
This is the secret:
Let's say a song has a 4/4 feeling and is a 2/3 rumba clave. If you write that song in 4/4 the clave will stay within one bar.
Now, when and if the clave reverses in the middle of the song, it's easier to reverse everyone if you are on 2/4, even though the feeling of the song is 4/4. With the clave divided you can reverse it whenever you want, on 2 or 3, without the need of a single 2/4 bar in a 4/4 song. Cool huh?

Man, rent the movie "Buena Vista Social Club" and listen to Tito Puente, Celia Cruz, Ruben Blades and such. Try to identify the clave and other elements and then forget it and just enjoy the music. You will play salsa in no time.

Regards,

@lex.

Hazz's picture

Hey Alex, just a thanks for

Hey Alex, just a thanks for all yer advice. I think I may have something that will work and if so I will post up the tune when it is finished.

Cheers Mate
Hazz

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Glad to help, happy

Glad to help, happy easter!!!

Hazz's picture

Happy Easter to you as

Happy Easter to you as well.

I just had a listen to Rebecca. The audio is not all that great but she does have a couple tunes up that are close to what I am workin' with.

Hazz

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http://www.rebecamauleon.com/

http://www.rebecamauleon.com/video.html

Hazz's picture

Thanks for the link, that

Thanks for the link, that help out some more. The writer is sending me the midi files so I can mix in what parts I need to get feel of the timing they used. From the reading and watching the vid on Rebeca's site I believe the tune uses a Timba pattern.

Hazz

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Paul Warren's picture

Thanks Alex. That explains a

Thanks Alex. That explains a lot.

What sort of tempo would you expect from a typical Latin piece? Do they tend to be pretty quick or range all over the spectrum?

All over. A bolero is pretty

All over. A bolero is pretty slow, while a "guaguanco" or "danzon" is very fast. In latin music, same rhythm played in different tempos receive different names. And there are hundreds of styles and rhythms. If you add Brazil to the mix, we're talking about thousands of styles.
Caribbean styles I recall now:

Bolero
Rumba
Mambo
Cha-cha
Boogaloo
Plena
Songo
Son
Guaguanco
Timba
Guajira
Mozambique
Danzon

and the list goes and goes...

Paul Warren's picture

Thanks Alex. At least now I

Thanks Alex. At least now I know how little I understand Latin music. I've been pretty much limited to Latin/rock styles and maybe a bit of Latin/pop. I'll have to try and listen to a wider variety. : )

Ann's picture

Try this

This might be helpful:
Understanding the Clave

-Ann-

Hazz's picture

I ordered the books Alex

I ordered the books Alex recommended but that page is very helpful as well. Thanks Ann

Hazz

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Great link Ann posted. Let

Great link Ann posted. Let me know how you like those books, ok?

@lex.

Hazz's picture

I sure will. I am a very

I sure will. I am a very slow reader so it might not be for a few weeks or so.

Hazz

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Paul Warren's picture

Very useful, thanks Ann.

Very useful, thanks Ann.