This lil' bout of sarcasm got me thinkin' so here is a serious question.
Why are there so many different ways to state the time sig? I mean, if a piece is in say 4/4 but in one of the measure there is only one 16th note and no rests, would that not make that measure 1/16 and not 4/4?
Technicaly, even if you let that 16th note ring out it would still be a 16th and if you sustain it for say one whole beat it then becomes a 1/4 note.
Why am I thinking about this? If you look at a piece of music and there are three measures in it.
The first measure has 1/4, 1/4, 1/4rest, 1/4.
The second has 1/2, 1/2.
The third has 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 8th rest, 1/2.
Then it would seem that each measure has a different time sig. Sine the top number indicates "how many" and the bottom is the length of beat. Looking at it like that the first measure would be 4/4. the second would be 2/2 and the third would be 8/8 since the 1/2 note would cover the last four 8th notes.
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I've been puzzled by time signatures before as well. For instance, in Hendrix' 'Little Wing', which is 4/4 throughout there are 2 bars of 2/4 time. Now couldn't you write the whole song out in 4/4 with 1 extra bar on the end?
Well you could, but it wouldn't sound the same played from the notation. There are subtle differences in articulation. I'm not expert enough to explain well but we all tend to emphasise certain beats. The 1 and 3 in 4/4 straight time. In addition the 1 is slightly emphasised over the 3. So in 4/4 time 2 bars might look like this (using ''''' to indicate velocity).
You're right Spiky1, the 'pulse' or 'feel' of a 6/8 time phrase is different than a 3/4 time phrase. I'm no theory wizard either but to the best of my knowledge that's because of where accented notes are placed.
A waltz has the accent on the 1. ONE two three ONE two three
I'm not familiar with 6/8 but it's probably something swing like, say ONE & two & three &
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"ONEtwo three FOUR five six with all down strokes of a pick [please bear with me and USE a pick for this explanation -yeah I know a pick!] and play the "and" after the ONE and the five on the upward movement of your pick.
Remember it's 6/8 so emphasize beats one and four, sumfin' loik this mate
"ONE" - down
and" - up
"two" - down
[silent] - up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"three" - down
[silent] - up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"FOUR" - down
[silent] - up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"five" - down
"and" - up
"six" - down
- up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"ONE" - down
and" - up
"two" - down
[silent] - up
"three" - down [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
[silent] - up
"FOUR" - down
[silent] - up
"five" - down[it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"and" - up
"six" - down
- up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
Easy if you are a guitarist who uses a pick! My suggestion is to learn with a pick for these occasions [it's actually easier to comprehend] and fingers too when you want that sort of softer tone or slower tempo, and get used to the sound..
It's not too bad if you go through it slowly and carefully. I know I have explained it in text rather than being able to demo but if you wade through it very carefully I think you'll get it OK. I hope so
dags
No worries about the pick Dags. I play guitar as well and use a pick from time to time on the bass.
I was actually being a smart arse to Paul but in all seriousness, what If the accent is supposed to be on, oh lets say the 3 and 5 rather then the 1 and 4? How would that be shown/written?
A lot of the tunes I work on I try and toss in weird accents because I like the way it sounds as long as I can get it to fit with the kick.
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It would be written in normal 6/8, and it may have a comment on the top of the page tmentioning to emphasize whatever beat they wanted, but I've never heard or seen it done that way.
Normally I think you'd just find it written as standard 6/6 and it would be left to you as the musician to interpret the song your personal way.
"ad lib" or "ad libitum" might be written to indicate that the performer may improvise freely, and I guess this is the sensible answer to your question.
Paul,
you are exactly right with 3/4 -the emphasis is on the first beat as you say.
3/4 =
Top number 3 means there are 3 beats [counts] in a bar.
Bottom number 4 means it is a quarter note that gets a beat [count]. Sorta like a fraction really - three quarters in a bar, get it?
Try counting it this way so I can explain the differences. 1&, 2& , 3& With the emphasis on beat one. Say out loud while you try this
"ONE and" [play on “ONE� and let it ring through the “and� – the “and� is silent]
“two and� [play on “two� and let it ring through the “and� – the “and� is silent]
“three and� [play on “three� and let it ring through the “and� – the “and� is silent]
Now supposing there are six eighth notes in a bar of ¾ time [the 4 on the bottom of the key signature still means that it’s a quarter note that gets a beat [ a count of “one and�] So an eighth note will get half of a count – cos an 1/8 is half of a ¼!!!! [so just the “one� or perhaps an “and�]
Our six eighth notes will count as follows…
"ONE and" [play on “ONE� and play the “and�]
“two and� [play on “two� and play the “and�]
“three and� [play on “three� and play the “and�]
So much easier to show/demo, than write down in text form.!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
6/8 =
Top number 6 means there are 6 beats [counts] in a bar.
Bottom number 8 means it is an eighth note that gets a beat [count]. Sorta like a fraction – six eighths in a bar, get it?
However, AND THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ¾ AND 6/8 time, - it's all in the way we count that makes it different, and the way it sounds is different than say six eighth notes in a bar of ¾.time. We would count 6/8 time thus.
“ONE two three FOUR five six�
NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE:
¾ Timing = “ONE and two and three and� Emphasis on ONE
6/8= “ONE two three FOUR five six. Emphasis on ONE and FOUR.
When played fast 6/8 gives you a definite feeling of two groups of three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
9/8 =
An extension of 6/8 with the emphasized beats on ONE, FOUR and SEVEN.
Count: “ONE two three� “ FOUR five six� “SEVN eight nine� Emphasis on ONE, FOUR, and SEVEN.
Use a single syllable count for “seven� like say sen�
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[quote=dags]Hazz,
sweated over a beer and an hour of working in Ms Word, then cut and pasted it to here.
dags [brain-dead and half knackered][/quote]
Half knackered and it is what? 10, 11 O'clock? I am not sure on the time difference.
Hazz
—
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5.15pm Sunday -I have had a busy day for an old un. Made a garden seat, cleaned all 4 air conditioner filters, did a bit of tidying up in the garden, taxed the brain here for a while, and enjoyed the site. Had a beer, and am wondering if the dodgy heart could survive a second -think I'll chance it.
Starting to feel like home here already. You guys are doing a great job. Congratulations.
Sharps are always written in key signatures in this order. FCGDAEB
The name of the key for sharps is one letter higher alphabetically than the last sharp to the right in the key signature. The last sharp is the 7th scale degree.
A semitone is just another word for a half step.
e.g.
Sharp Keys:
G major Key sig = F# + 1 semitone = G [the key]
D major F# C# + 1 semitone = D
A major F# C# G# + 1 semitone = A
E major F# C# G# D# + 1 semitone = E
B major F# C# G# D# A# + 1 semitone = B
F# maj F# C# G# D# A# E# + 1 semitone = F#
C# major F3 C# G# D# A# E# B# +1 semitone = C#
Flats are written in hkey sigs in the reverse order to that of sharps i.e. BEADGCF
With flats, the last flat written to the right is the 4th degree of the scale. Look back one flat in the order that the flats are written and you will have the name of that major key.
Flat Keys:
F major Bb
Bb major Bb Eb go back one = Bb
Eb maj r Bb Eb Ab go back one = Eb
Ab major Bb Eb Ab Db go back one = Ab
Db major Bb Eb Ab Db Gb go back one = Db
Gb major Bb Eb Ab Dn Gb Cb go back one = Gb
This is the only memory aid I am aware of for memorising key sigs Brian, I hoipe it is of some assistance.
It's all really easy as long as the denominator is four. Things written "in four" follow the same basic rules, whether it's 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 6/4, whatever. Remember these two basic rules:
1. The top number tells you how many beats are in a measure
2. The bottom number tells you what sort of note counts as one beat.
So, in a bar of 4/4. There are four beats and quarter notes count as one beat. So you can get a full bar of 4/4 with any of these combinations:
You can also mix and match notes and rests, so long as the total for every bar is four beats (per the top number). There are some special rules for the first and last bar of a piece, so you can have a "lead-in" or "lead-out" that are less than a full bar (though, technically, the lead-in and lead-out together should total one bar).
It's also possible to change signatures bar by bar, if you like. A lot of metal or prog tunes often have a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 3/4 (why not just write it as 7/4, you might ask? No real reason, other than most people feel more comfortable with groupings of 4 and 3 than with groupings of 5 and 7).
I suck and reading anything written "in eight" (i.e. any sig written n/8, where n is the number of beats per bar). But 6/8 means there are six beats in each measure but an eighth note counts as one beat! So a full bar would take any combination of the following:
Obviously, the difference here from 4/4 is that the basic pulse is in groups of 3 rather than groups of 2. So it would seem that 3/4 and 6/8 are two different ways of writing music with a "three" feel.
While I agree with your analysis completely, I think it's important to note that the accents will be different in the odd time sigs. To the best of my knowledge that's what makes a 3/4 sound different from a 6/8. The former is a typical waltz while the latter is a more subtle waltz-like affair with a faster overall feel.
I see where you are coming from with this but in my experiance, I have had a songs written in 4/4 but the accents were on the second and third beat and others where the accents were on the third and fourt beat. So it comes down to what the composer of the song is hearing in their head.
Also, and this is just my opinion and thoughts, having a time sig serves no purpose when I look at a piece of music. If one measure is 4/4 and then the next has a bunch of 16th's with a 1/4 note tossed in I KNOW that there is a change and play it respectively. Knowing where to place the notes and when to accent them is what is important and just because it states 4/4 or 5/4, etc. etc. etc. means nothing (I do know what it means but ya should get the point) to me when I look at it as long as the line works for that particular tune.
Did that make sense to anyone? 'Cause I am not sure how else to explain what I am thinking.
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I think I'm guilty of over-generalising a bit. I realize that the accents are genre specific and somewhat dependant on the composer. However, in a very general sense I think I'm right in saying the difference between time sigs like 3/4 and 6/8 or 2/4 and 4/4 is the 'feel' and the feel comes from the different accent pattern.
I do understand what you are saying about the time sig not being too important if you aren't sight reading notation. If you gave me a 6/8 piece to play from notation I'd be screwed. But I could play it by ear, well at least try to play it. hahahaha
Yeah, I don't know anything about default accents. I just go by the piece. I'm sure there are some traditional places where accents would be expected (which is why marches are written in 2/4 rather than 4/4). But the accents also vary by genre. In a 4/4 rock piece, the accents are on the 2 and the 4. In a 4/4 jazz piece, the accents are on the 1 and 3. In a 4/4 funk piece, the only really strong accent is on the 1.
You're right that 3/4 screams "waltz" and you'd tend to expect that "um-pah-pah" rhythm (i.e. accent on the 1). I see lots of blues shuffles written in 6/8. There's always more than one way to write things, though there are conventional ways of going about it that persist (with good reason, usually, since those are generaly the easiest way to go about it). For example, you could write an entire piece in Eb using nothing but accidentals, but it's far easier to follow the convention and use a key signature. It just makes things easier to read.
Take all this with a grain of salt, of course. I'm not a strong reader (working on it!), so most of my knowledge of music doesn't deal much with the conventions of written music. I'm familiar with them from method/theory books and from back when I used to play trumpet (in high school).
"I think it's important to note that the accents will be different in the odd time sigs. To the best of my knowledge that's what makes a 3/4 sound different from a 6/8. The former is a typical waltz while the latter is a more subtle waltz-like affair with a faster overall feel."
Oh, I don't doubt that you're right. I don't know much about why one would prefer a particular time sig over another. I just know, technically, how time sigs in general work. As for the conventions of choosing one over the other, I defer to people who have more experience with standard notation (anyone? anyone? lurkers?)
Just an interesting thing that I saw once, it was the world record for the most number of notes played in a single bar of music (this was years ago when I was a kid). And the winner was this ULTRA slow version of Red House by Jimi Hendrix, and it was in something like 12/8 time or something wierd like that.
even in common 4/4 timing you coan have hemidemisemiquavers [64th notes -those horrors with 4 flags on the stems] which would give you 64 notes to a bar [listen to "flight of the bumblebee" for an example]. Not many musicians that could play 16 notes to every one of my quarter notes. Fastest notes in written music notation and to be avoided by all normal human beans like the aids virus.
Yea this is what I tell my band when my timing is a bit off at the gig, I just say that I was trying play using 64ths before or after the beat but if I play a wrong note I just say: did you hear that really cool jazz note that I played? tricks of the trade :D
Different time signatures in one piece are often a result of the phrasing of the song. Theoretically, you could break down all the peices of the different time signatures and come up with something mathmatically correct, but the phrasing would be ripped apart. The song wouldn't flow in the manner that the composer had in mind.
6/8 is more like: one two three four five six, one two three four five six.
When you hear a song in 6/8, you can almost count out the beats in this manner. Generally, the phrasing is such that each phrase begins on the 1st beat, peaks at three and four, and chills at six. Then it picks up the next phrase at one again.
3/4 is like: one two three, one two three
Think waltz. Even if you played eighth notes (one-and-two-and-three-and), you still would not get the feel of the 6/8 time.
Triplets feel like this:
trip-e-let, trip-e-let
These are commonly found in 4/4 time. They add a little swing to a straight 4/4 beat. One triplet = one quarter note.
2/4 time feels like this: one and two and, one and two and
Think train engine...Chucka chucka, Chucka chucka (choo-choo!)
5/4 time is very cool but I can't think of how to really explain the feel here. My favorite 5/4 time song is Hum's "Little Dipper" from their You'd Prefer and Astronaut CD.
7/8 is cool too. It's another difficult one to show in text. It feels like a combination of 6/8 and 4/4.
[quote=Ann]Different time signatures in one piece are often a result of the phrasing of the song. Theoretically, you could break down all the peices of the different time signatures and come up with something mathmatically correct, but the phrasing would be ripped apart. The song wouldn't flow in the manner that the composer had in mind.[/quote]
That's the best description I've ever read Ann. Finally, a concise explanation as to why a song would be written in 4/4 when mathematically it could be just as easily written in 2/4.
I'd always realized that the emphasis would be different but I hadn't explicitly realized that the flow would also be different. This also explains a little oddity I'd spotted in Hendrix' 'Little Wing'. Little Wing is in 4/4 with a couple of bars of 2/4 inserted. I always wondered why it wasn't written all in 4/4. Now I see it's the flow that matters in this case. The 2/4 bars accentuate the song and allow it to flow the way Jimi intended.
I like your descriptions of the times Ann; takes me back to high school band days.
The only thing I might add is a lot of times in 6/8 time, the notes are almost played with a triplet mentality, giving it a feel like:
one two three four five six, one two three four five six
5/8 and 7/8 are some of my favorite time signatures, because as a musician (or the conductor) has to decide what was to break up the eighth notes.
For example, 5/8 could be played as one two three four five, one two three four five
or one two three four five, one two three four five
and then 7/8 would be the same, but with more combinations cause there are two sets of two eigths and one of three eigths. Really its a lot easier to feel it that to type it I've just realized haha.
If your really interesting in this kind of stuff, take a listen to the album Time Out by The Dave Brubeck Quartet, its a whole jazz album using rarer time signatures and switching during songs and such...
Being an "Orch Dork" (as opposed to a Band Nerd) really paid off in the end I guess. : ) Playing in bands and orchestras can really give you a sense of timing and rhythm and how they relate to the piece as a whole. You also learn that understanding time doesn't mean that the math will actually make sense. It's better if you learn how to feel it.
Serious time
This lil' bout of sarcasm got me thinkin' so here is a serious question.
Why are there so many different ways to state the time sig? I mean, if a piece is in say 4/4 but in one of the measure there is only one 16th note and no rests, would that not make that measure 1/16 and not 4/4?
Technicaly, even if you let that 16th note ring out it would still be a 16th and if you sustain it for say one whole beat it then becomes a 1/4 note.
Why am I thinking about this? If you look at a piece of music and there are three measures in it.
The first measure has 1/4, 1/4, 1/4rest, 1/4.
The second has 1/2, 1/2.
The third has 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 8th rest, 1/2.
Then it would seem that each measure has a different time sig. Sine the top number indicates "how many" and the bottom is the length of beat. Looking at it like that the first measure would be 4/4. the second would be 2/2 and the third would be 8/8 since the 1/2 note would cover the last four 8th notes.
Am I missing something here?
HAZ
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I've been puzzled by time
I've been puzzled by time signatures before as well. For instance, in Hendrix' 'Little Wing', which is 4/4 throughout there are 2 bars of 2/4 time. Now couldn't you write the whole song out in 4/4 with 1 extra bar on the end?
Well you could, but it wouldn't sound the same played from the notation. There are subtle differences in articulation. I'm not expert enough to explain well but we all tend to emphasise certain beats. The 1 and 3 in 4/4 straight time. In addition the 1 is slightly emphasised over the 3. So in 4/4 time 2 bars might look like this (using ''''' to indicate velocity).
1''''', 2''', 3'''', 4''', 1''''', 2''', 3'''', 4'''
where as a bar of 4/4 plus a 2 bars of 2/4 might look like this
1''''', 2''', 3'''', 4''', 1''''', 2''', 1''''', 2'''
Note the subtle difference. Similar analyses apply to other time sigs. 5/4 being a very good example (Pink Floyds 'Money')
1''''', 2''', 3'''', 4''', 5''''
Hope this helps a little. As I said I'm no expert but I have had the benefit of a little teaching regarding time sigs.
6/8 ,,,3/4
I am very ignorant theory wise but, to me, a song in 6/8 has a different "pulse" than a song in 3/4, although really they're otherwise similar.
Fat man, fat bass.
You're right Spiky1, the
You're right Spiky1, the 'pulse' or 'feel' of a 6/8 time phrase is different than a 3/4 time phrase. I'm no theory wizard either but to the best of my knowledge that's because of where accented notes are placed.
A waltz has the accent on the 1. ONE two three ONE two three
I'm not familiar with 6/8 but it's probably something swing like, say ONE & two & three &
6/8 - 9/8 - 12/8
Paul,
6/8 = ONE two three FOUR five six
an 1/8th note gets one count as opposed to 3/4 where a 1/4 note gets a count.
Dont use a 2 sylable count for beat seven [sev would do] but the important thing is the emphasis on beats 1 and 4
9/8 Emphasis on beats 1 4 7
12/8 as in the Moody Blues"Nights in White Satin" Emphasis on beats 1 4 7 10
Again use "sen" and "len" [for example] instead of 2 sylable counts for beat 7 and 11
dags
dags
That is just dandy Paul but
That is just dandy Paul but what if I want to play one AND two three four five AND six? ;D
Hazz
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Easy Hazz. lol!
Hazz,
Try this -it works....
just play your
"ONEtwo three FOUR five six with all down strokes of a pick [please bear with me and USE a pick for this explanation -yeah I know a pick!] and play the "and" after the ONE and the five on the upward movement of your pick.
Remember it's 6/8 so emphasize beats one and four, sumfin' loik this mate
"ONE" - down
and" - up
"two" - down
[silent] - up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"three" - down
[silent] - up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"FOUR" - down
[silent] - up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"five" - down
"and" - up
"six" - down
- up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"ONE" - down
and" - up
"two" - down
[silent] - up
"three" - down [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
[silent] - up
"FOUR" - down
[silent] - up
"five" - down[it would be an "and" if one was required here]
"and" - up
"six" - down
- up [it would be an "and" if one was required here]
Easy if you are a guitarist who uses a pick! My suggestion is to learn with a pick for these occasions [it's actually easier to comprehend] and fingers too when you want that sort of softer tone or slower tempo, and get used to the sound..
It's not too bad if you go through it slowly and carefully. I know I have explained it in text rather than being able to demo but if you wade through it very carefully I think you'll get it OK. I hope so
dags
dags
No worries about the pick
No worries about the pick Dags. I play guitar as well and use a pick from time to time on the bass.
I was actually being a smart arse to Paul but in all seriousness, what If the accent is supposed to be on, oh lets say the 3 and 5 rather then the 1 and 4? How would that be shown/written?
A lot of the tunes I work on I try and toss in weird accents because I like the way it sounds as long as I can get it to fit with the kick.
Hazz
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wot a orrid question!
It would be written in normal 6/8, and it may have a comment on the top of the page tmentioning to emphasize whatever beat they wanted, but I've never heard or seen it done that way.
Normally I think you'd just find it written as standard 6/6 and it would be left to you as the musician to interpret the song your personal way.
"ad lib" or "ad libitum" might be written to indicate that the performer may improvise freely, and I guess this is the sensible answer to your question.
dags
dags
3/4 - 6/8 - 9/8 - 12/8 Timing
Paul,
you are exactly right with 3/4 -the emphasis is on the first beat as you say.
3/4 =
Top number 3 means there are 3 beats [counts] in a bar.
Bottom number 4 means it is a quarter note that gets a beat [count]. Sorta like a fraction really - three quarters in a bar, get it?
Try counting it this way so I can explain the differences. 1&, 2& , 3& With the emphasis on beat one. Say out loud while you try this
"ONE and" [play on “ONE� and let it ring through the “and� – the “and� is silent]
“two and� [play on “two� and let it ring through the “and� – the “and� is silent]
“three and� [play on “three� and let it ring through the “and� – the “and� is silent]
Now supposing there are six eighth notes in a bar of ¾ time [the 4 on the bottom of the key signature still means that it’s a quarter note that gets a beat [ a count of “one and�] So an eighth note will get half of a count – cos an 1/8 is half of a ¼!!!! [so just the “one� or perhaps an “and�]
Our six eighth notes will count as follows…
"ONE and" [play on “ONE� and play the “and�]
“two and� [play on “two� and play the “and�]
“three and� [play on “three� and play the “and�]
So much easier to show/demo, than write down in text form.!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
6/8 =
Top number 6 means there are 6 beats [counts] in a bar.
Bottom number 8 means it is an eighth note that gets a beat [count]. Sorta like a fraction – six eighths in a bar, get it?
However, AND THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ¾ AND 6/8 time, - it's all in the way we count that makes it different, and the way it sounds is different than say six eighth notes in a bar of ¾.time. We would count 6/8 time thus.
“ONE two three FOUR five six�
NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE:
¾ Timing = “ONE and two and three and� Emphasis on ONE
6/8= “ONE two three FOUR five six. Emphasis on ONE and FOUR.
When played fast 6/8 gives you a definite feeling of two groups of three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
9/8 =
An extension of 6/8 with the emphasized beats on ONE, FOUR and SEVEN.
Count: “ONE two three� “ FOUR five six� “SEVN eight nine� Emphasis on ONE, FOUR, and SEVEN.
Use a single syllable count for “seven� like say sen�
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
12/8=
As 9/8 but add “TEN levn twelve� Use a single syllable count for “eleven� like say len�
Listen to Moody Blues “Nights in White Satin� for an example.
Hope this helps. It’s hard to describe rather than demo. But Hey it’s worth a try.
dags
dags
If ya got a video camera
If ya got a video camera Dags you could always post a video lesson. Hint Hint.
Did you just type all that out or did ya do it before logging on and cut and paste?
Hazz
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Hazz, sweated over a beer
Hazz,
sweated over a beer and an hour of working in Ms Word, then cut and pasted it to here.
dags [brain-dead and half knackered]
dags
Re: Hazz,
[quote=dags]Hazz,
sweated over a beer and an hour of working in Ms Word, then cut and pasted it to here.
dags [brain-dead and half knackered][/quote]
Half knackered and it is what? 10, 11 O'clock? I am not sure on the time difference.
Hazz
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Musicians Collaboration Studio
time
5.15pm Sunday -I have had a busy day for an old un. Made a garden seat, cleaned all 4 air conditioner filters, did a bit of tidying up in the garden, taxed the brain here for a while, and enjoyed the site. Had a beer, and am wondering if the dodgy heart could survive a second -think I'll chance it.
Starting to feel like home here already. You guys are doing a great job. Congratulations.
dags
dags
bit complex for an oldie but....
Now you have me in an area of solid stoopiness and higorance Hazz.
I don't have a video camera, just a digital which I just aim and snap with but thats as far as I can manage with photography.
dags
dags
Thanks for the info...
Thanks, time signatures have given me some mental anguish too.
Now if I could just figure some easy way to memorize key signatures! LOL
B #
B #
oops
will try again
dags
B# Try this for memorising Key Signatures.
Sharps are always written in key signatures in this order. FCGDAEB
The name of the key for sharps is one letter higher alphabetically than the last sharp to the right in the key signature. The last sharp is the 7th scale degree.
A semitone is just another word for a half step.
e.g.
Sharp Keys:
G major Key sig = F# + 1 semitone = G [the key]
D major F# C# + 1 semitone = D
A major F# C# G# + 1 semitone = A
E major F# C# G# D# + 1 semitone = E
B major F# C# G# D# A# + 1 semitone = B
F# maj F# C# G# D# A# E# + 1 semitone = F#
C# major F3 C# G# D# A# E# B# +1 semitone = C#
Flats are written in hkey sigs in the reverse order to that of sharps i.e. BEADGCF
With flats, the last flat written to the right is the 4th degree of the scale. Look back one flat in the order that the flats are written and you will have the name of that major key.
Flat Keys:
F major Bb
Bb major Bb Eb go back one = Bb
Eb maj r Bb Eb Ab go back one = Eb
Ab major Bb Eb Ab Db go back one = Ab
Db major Bb Eb Ab Db Gb go back one = Db
Gb major Bb Eb Ab Dn Gb Cb go back one = Gb
This is the only memory aid I am aware of for memorising key sigs Brian, I hoipe it is of some assistance.
Dags
dags
That's a beautiful
That's a beautiful explanation, Dags. With that, maybe I can finally commit this to memory! Thank you.
Wheat
bassplaying.com
It's all really easy as long
It's all really easy as long as the denominator is four. Things written "in four" follow the same basic rules, whether it's 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 6/4, whatever. Remember these two basic rules:
1. The top number tells you how many beats are in a measure
2. The bottom number tells you what sort of note counts as one beat.
So, in a bar of 4/4. There are four beats and quarter notes count as one beat. So you can get a full bar of 4/4 with any of these combinations:
1 whole note
2 half notes
4 quarter notes
8 eighth notes
16 sixteenth notes
You can also mix and match notes and rests, so long as the total for every bar is four beats (per the top number). There are some special rules for the first and last bar of a piece, so you can have a "lead-in" or "lead-out" that are less than a full bar (though, technically, the lead-in and lead-out together should total one bar).
It's also possible to change signatures bar by bar, if you like. A lot of metal or prog tunes often have a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 3/4 (why not just write it as 7/4, you might ask? No real reason, other than most people feel more comfortable with groupings of 4 and 3 than with groupings of 5 and 7).
I suck and reading anything written "in eight" (i.e. any sig written n/8, where n is the number of beats per bar). But 6/8 means there are six beats in each measure but an eighth note counts as one beat! So a full bar would take any combination of the following:
12 sixteenth notes
6 eighth notes
3 quarter notes
1 dotted half-note
Obviously, the difference here from 4/4 is that the basic pulse is in groups of 3 rather than groups of 2. So it would seem that 3/4 and 6/8 are two different ways of writing music with a "three" feel.
bassplaying.com
While I agree with your
While I agree with your analysis completely, I think it's important to note that the accents will be different in the odd time sigs. To the best of my knowledge that's what makes a 3/4 sound different from a 6/8. The former is a typical waltz while the latter is a more subtle waltz-like affair with a faster overall feel.
I see where you are coming
I see where you are coming from with this but in my experiance, I have had a songs written in 4/4 but the accents were on the second and third beat and others where the accents were on the third and fourt beat. So it comes down to what the composer of the song is hearing in their head.
Also, and this is just my opinion and thoughts, having a time sig serves no purpose when I look at a piece of music. If one measure is 4/4 and then the next has a bunch of 16th's with a 1/4 note tossed in I KNOW that there is a change and play it respectively. Knowing where to place the notes and when to accent them is what is important and just because it states 4/4 or 5/4, etc. etc. etc. means nothing (I do know what it means but ya should get the point) to me when I look at it as long as the line works for that particular tune.
Did that make sense to anyone? 'Cause I am not sure how else to explain what I am thinking.
HAZ
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I think I'm guilty of
I think I'm guilty of over-generalising a bit. I realize that the accents are genre specific and somewhat dependant on the composer. However, in a very general sense I think I'm right in saying the difference between time sigs like 3/4 and 6/8 or 2/4 and 4/4 is the 'feel' and the feel comes from the different accent pattern.
I do understand what you are saying about the time sig not being too important if you aren't sight reading notation. If you gave me a 6/8 piece to play from notation I'd be screwed. But I could play it by ear, well at least try to play it. hahahaha
I dig what you're saying.
I dig what you're saying. And I think you're completely right.
Wheat
PS I finally finished my track! It's over in the BP Project files thread.
bassplaying.com
Yeah, I don't know anything
Yeah, I don't know anything about default accents. I just go by the piece. I'm sure there are some traditional places where accents would be expected (which is why marches are written in 2/4 rather than 4/4). But the accents also vary by genre. In a 4/4 rock piece, the accents are on the 2 and the 4. In a 4/4 jazz piece, the accents are on the 1 and 3. In a 4/4 funk piece, the only really strong accent is on the 1.
You're right that 3/4 screams "waltz" and you'd tend to expect that "um-pah-pah" rhythm (i.e. accent on the 1). I see lots of blues shuffles written in 6/8. There's always more than one way to write things, though there are conventional ways of going about it that persist (with good reason, usually, since those are generaly the easiest way to go about it). For example, you could write an entire piece in Eb using nothing but accidentals, but it's far easier to follow the convention and use a key signature. It just makes things easier to read.
Take all this with a grain of salt, of course. I'm not a strong reader (working on it!), so most of my knowledge of music doesn't deal much with the conventions of written music. I'm familiar with them from method/theory books and from back when I used to play trumpet (in high school).
bassplaying.com
"I think it's important to
"I think it's important to note that the accents will be different in the odd time sigs. To the best of my knowledge that's what makes a 3/4 sound different from a 6/8. The former is a typical waltz while the latter is a more subtle waltz-like affair with a faster overall feel."
Oh, I don't doubt that you're right. I don't know much about why one would prefer a particular time sig over another. I just know, technically, how time sigs in general work. As for the conventions of choosing one over the other, I defer to people who have more experience with standard notation (anyone? anyone? lurkers?)
Cheers,
Wheat
bassplaying.com
Red House
Just an interesting thing that I saw once, it was the world record for the most number of notes played in a single bar of music (this was years ago when I was a kid). And the winner was this ULTRA slow version of Red House by Jimi Hendrix, and it was in something like 12/8 time or something wierd like that.
This bar of music was FULL man!
Fat man, fat bass.
Nice one, Spiky1! Wheat
Nice one, Spiky1!
Wheat
bassplaying.com
Lotza notes
Hi Spiky,
even in common 4/4 timing you coan have hemidemisemiquavers [64th notes -those horrors with 4 flags on the stems] which would give you 64 notes to a bar [listen to "flight of the bumblebee" for an example]. Not many musicians that could play 16 notes to every one of my quarter notes. Fastest notes in written music notation and to be avoided by all normal human beans like the aids virus.
dags
dags
Yea this is what I tell my
Yea this is what I tell my band when my timing is a bit off at the gig, I just say that I was trying play using 64ths before or after the beat but if I play a wrong note I just say: did you hear that really cool jazz note that I played? tricks of the trade :D
Any faster you call 'em
Any faster you call 'em trills.
In notation, you see them like this ~~ over the notes.
Here's some common ones
Different time signatures in one piece are often a result of the phrasing of the song. Theoretically, you could break down all the peices of the different time signatures and come up with something mathmatically correct, but the phrasing would be ripped apart. The song wouldn't flow in the manner that the composer had in mind.
6/8 is more like:
one two three four five six, one two three four five six.
When you hear a song in 6/8, you can almost count out the beats in this manner. Generally, the phrasing is such that each phrase begins on the 1st beat, peaks at three and four, and chills at six. Then it picks up the next phrase at one again.
3/4 is like:
one two three, one two three
Think waltz. Even if you played eighth notes (one-and-two-and-three-and), you still would not get the feel of the 6/8 time.
Triplets feel like this:
trip-e-let, trip-e-let
These are commonly found in 4/4 time. They add a little swing to a straight 4/4 beat. One triplet = one quarter note.
2/4 time feels like this:
one and two and, one and two and
Think train engine...Chucka chucka, Chucka chucka (choo-choo!)
5/4 time is very cool but I can't think of how to really explain the feel here. My favorite 5/4 time song is Hum's "Little Dipper" from their You'd Prefer and Astronaut CD.
7/8 is cool too. It's another difficult one to show in text. It feels like a combination of 6/8 and 4/4.
-Ann-
Re: Here's some common ones
[quote=Ann]Different time signatures in one piece are often a result of the phrasing of the song. Theoretically, you could break down all the peices of the different time signatures and come up with something mathmatically correct, but the phrasing would be ripped apart. The song wouldn't flow in the manner that the composer had in mind.[/quote]
That's the best description I've ever read Ann. Finally, a concise explanation as to why a song would be written in 4/4 when mathematically it could be just as easily written in 2/4.
I'd always realized that the emphasis would be different but I hadn't explicitly realized that the flow would also be different. This also explains a little oddity I'd spotted in Hendrix' 'Little Wing'. Little Wing is in 4/4 with a couple of bars of 2/4 inserted. I always wondered why it wasn't written all in 4/4. Now I see it's the flow that matters in this case. The 2/4 bars accentuate the song and allow it to flow the way Jimi intended.
Thanks for your insight Ann.
I like your descriptions of
I like your descriptions of the times Ann; takes me back to high school band days.
The only thing I might add is a lot of times in 6/8 time, the notes are almost played with a triplet mentality, giving it a feel like:
one two three four five six, one two three four five six
5/8 and 7/8 are some of my favorite time signatures, because as a musician (or the conductor) has to decide what was to break up the eighth notes.
For example, 5/8 could be played as
one two three four five, one two three four five
or
one two three four five, one two three four five
and then 7/8 would be the same, but with more combinations cause there are two sets of two eigths and one of three eigths. Really its a lot easier to feel it that to type it I've just realized haha.
If your really interesting in this kind of stuff, take a listen to the album Time Out by The Dave Brubeck Quartet, its a whole jazz album using rarer time signatures and switching during songs and such...
Being an "Orch Dork" (as
Being an "Orch Dork" (as opposed to a Band Nerd) really paid off in the end I guess. : ) Playing in bands and orchestras can really give you a sense of timing and rhythm and how they relate to the piece as a whole. You also learn that understanding time doesn't mean that the math will actually make sense. It's better if you learn how to feel it.
-Ann-