Ok, another question
Not from the book though.
It has been a very loooong time, many, many, MANY moons since I have played or jammed with anyone.
Well, one guy was looking for a bass line for his tune, I came up with one I liked.
He said I should probably stick more to the root notes (he used the plural even though it was entirerly bassed off of Eb.
Now if some one tells you that, what exactly do they mean?
I stayed with Eb using some (well all) the notes in the harmonic minor scale. Part of the bass line I did down low (Eb, 4 fret B string) and part was up a bit (Eb, 10th fret E string).
So if some ones askes you to stay with the root note more, are they saying all they want is for you to hit the root and maybe a couple of other notes, are they saying stay with in a scale/mode of the root note or is it subjective and it all depends on what they personally want at for their tune. I have always took it to mean just stay with in a scale/mode with the respective root.
Heck, I even tossed out a different line, changing the quarter and eighth notes to halfs and wholes and only hitting a few notes in the scale.
I had asked him which one he ment and he has not gave an answer yet.
So after all that, I am just trying to find out how you would have interpeted his statement, "Just stick to the root notes a little more."
Cheers
HAZ
Typical guitarist mentality...
The harsh version:
The "stick to the root notes" line comes from guitarists who don't want you stealing their spotlight and would prefer all bassist to be replaced by bass sythesizers that only play straight eigth-note patterns sticking exclusively to the roots of the chords in the progression.
The less-harsh version:
He thinks your line is too busy and would like you to play fewer scale tones (other than the root). He might like for you to create a simple rhythm using the root and perhaps a few other scale tones: 5th and 3rd, maybe 7th.
Wheat
bassplaying.com
How'd ya know he was a
How'd ya know he was a guitarist? ;P
I am still waiting for his respones to my question though and he has stated HE is going to do the bass for this tune.
I did however change from using the entire scale to just "R 3 4" and "R 3 5"
Ok, converging my other post to this one for a minute, using the Eb harmonic minor scale, would the "R 3 4" and "R 3 5" be written (the way you do in your book) "R -3 -4" and "R -3 -5" since all the notes are flat?
HAZ
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Either/Or
Haz,
If I've made the context clear, I'll generally give the degree w/o the note. So, if I've already made it clear that we're talking about the Eb harmonic minor scale, I'd say "just play R 3 5." But, if I'm trying to be super-accurate and/or base my comparison off the major scale, I'd say "play R b3 5." The print version of that book (and the next web revision--if I ever do another one) will change those minus signs to flat symbols. :)
So, the shorter version is: "I'm wildly inconsistent."
Wheat
bassplaying.com
What's goin' on?
The playing of James Jamerson on "What's Goin' On?" by Marvin Gaye is a wonderful example of a busy line that serves the song beautifully. It is almost a bass "solo" from start to finish but never muddies the song or does anything other than augment it.
The guy was a bona-fide genius!
Fat man, fat bass.
Totally
Very true, Spiky. That line is genious. And Jamerson is high enough in the mix that you can really appreciate every note of it (which he sadly isn't in a lot of the Motown stuff).
Wheat
bassplaying.com
Heard similiar comments
Haz, I play with a variety of talented musicians as a music team volunteer at my Church. One is a jazz piano player who is awesome. He was just voted "Best Jazz Musician" in my city, was voted "Best Jazz Piano Player" in Florida 6 times when he lived there, and he did a 4 year stint in a major casino in Vegas. Plus he has 6 well received CD's.
I'm thrilled to get a chance to play with him every few weeks.
Anyhow, often when we are doing the final arranging of the music we will be playing that week, he will say something like "Pete, just peddle the "A" during that sequence." I think "Just root notes?" And I feel let down. But, he'll also say things like "I loved the fills you used in that song." Then I feel great.
Perhaps just playing root notes (or peddling a root) fits the song better, perhaps not.
If I were in a band and the guitar player told me to play more root notes, I'd have second thoughts about that band as I would want to add more to the overall sound collaboration. plus it would be really boring. I wouldn't worry about the comments of just one guitarist.
Pete
Fortunatly Pete, I am not in
Fortunatly Pete, I am not in his band, I was just helping him out.
I also do not worry about the comments but it did make me wonder what someone means when they say that since that is the first time I have been told that.
Is it not good feeling when you get to jam/play with some one as talented as the guy you play with? Every so often I get to play with a great bassist and just watching, playing along and listening you lear a lot.
HAZ
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"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."
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"Carburetors man!! That's what life is all about."
Musicians Collaboration Studio
Root notes
I think it's good technique to stick to root notes when the song calls for it. And to do it properly can be difficult. Providing just the right pulse on a few bars that contains only one note is quite challenging to me. I find it is usually easier to cut loose a bit melodically. I really admire bassists who can really groove on one note.
Frank Zappa said that what he looked for in a bassist was not a virtuoso, nesecarily, but someone who plays each note with ultimate comittment no matter how simple or even monotonous the bassline is.
Fat man, fat bass.
To root or not to root, that is the question!
One really good example of getting a lot of mileage out of simply playing the roots of the chords in the progression is Adam Claton's line on U2's "With or Without You." It's a four-chord song and he plays a straight, eight-note line without any fills or even walkdowns between notes. That's some serious discipline. But it really works for that song. A busier line (which is exactly what I'd be tempted to play) wouldn't keep that hypnotic pule going.
I like bassists who are able to do both--keep it simple and mix it up. For years, I've felt like I've been fighting some sort of war with the "keep it simple" school of bass playing. Keeping it too simple (all the time) is boring, but so is turning every track into a chops fest (and that goes for every instrument, not just the bass).
Any of you guys like Lifehouse? I think their bassist does a really good job of playing interesting lines that really add to the song, but he also knows when to just lay down some low, straight, eighths. I'll have to cite some specific lines for you to check out, but most anything on their "No Name Face" disc shows him off to advantage. And you can really hear the bass on their discs. It isn't hidden under layers of production. It's a real part of what's going on. You can tell he must be respected in that band.
Wheat
bassplaying.com
Re: To root or not to root, that is the question!
[quote=wheat]One really good example of getting a lot of mileage out of simply playing the roots of the chords in the progression is Adam Claton's line on U2's "With or Without You." It's a four-chord song and he plays a straight, eight-note line without any fills or even walkdowns between notes. That's some serious discipline. But it really works for that song. A busier line (which is exactly what I'd be tempted to play) wouldn't keep that hypnotic pule going.
Wheat[/quote]
Adam Clayton plays very simple lines on every U2 song I can think of... I've covered some of their songs in the past and the bass got very boring as a player. The songs sound great, but, the lines are all very simple.
I played I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For and while the bass line really drove the song... it was very easy to play. People expect Adam's line when you cover that song.
Pete
It is bass lines like those
It is bass lines like those when you need to here the rest of the instruments for it to feel not so boring.
Since I just recently started to work with other musicians I have found I need to learn to keep the bass lines not so busy which is something I struggle with because this is where my guitarist ego takes over and I want the bass to be out front, "Oh, you mean you want to hear the guitar and vocals?"
I recently laid a track down for guy who told me the line I originally wrote was a bit to much (not the one I originally started the thread about) so I gave him one that sounded like I was practicing. It had two notes throughout with the exception of a walk up when entering the chorus and a walk down for the bridge. It sounded great when all the other instruments were in the mix but on its own it was very very boring to play/listen too, especially since the song was 4min in length and only 88bpm.
HAZ
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"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."
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"Carburetors man!! That's what life is all about."
Musicians Collaboration Studio
TRUE!!
I totally agree with you. Another example is the Hooters "All You Zombies", which is a rock/reggae song with an incredibly simple pulse on the 3rd beat plus a few subtle embellishments. I think this song as with "With or Without You" is a great study peice for beginner bassists.
Fat man, fat bass.
The Hooters?
I didn't think anyone remembered the Hooters. They were the big fish in Philly for a while and got some big national but short-lived exposure. I lived in the Philly area for 33 years and saw some great acts that never made the leap to the big time even though they were right on the bubble.
Tommy Conwell and the Young Rumblers were off to a blazing start.
Robert Hazard and the Heroes were big in Philly but he made his mark when Cindi Lauper covered "Girls Just Want to Have Fun"
There was "Rio" which I liked but they never broke... they had the drummer that played with Billy Squire.
Cool, I have a Hooters record around here somewhere, I'll have to dig it up.
Pete
Remember...you might just be
Remember...you might just be playing 3 notes but those are YOUR 3 NOTES!
Play your 3 notes like your life depends on it. No one else gets those notes but you. Make 'em shine.
The new bass player for my old band is one of those who plays too many notes in all the wrong spots. It doesn't make him look or sound like an awesome bass player. It makes him sound like he's playing too many notes.
-Ann-
I actually got so board
I actually got so board playing that tune that I started adding some bends and vibrato. Other wise it would have just been stright half and whole notes that the guy wanted. He bassically wanted something he could have easily done on his keyboard but wanted the tone of a real bass.
I definitly agree with your first line "Remember...you might just be playing 3 notes but those are YOUR 3 NOTES!"
Hazz
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Opinions
Well Haz, it could be interpreted in many ways. First, he might be concerned that your playing is a bit busy. This is not a dig on you, but sometimes, we bassists get very good at our craft and begin to get a "guitar" mentality and start playing "lead guitar" so to speak. That's okay if you're John Entwistle or Steve Harris type because those guys do it in such a way that it fits what is needed for the song. I think we should take the approach of these two greats and remember that the foundation is what is important in the context of a band. Steve Lawson's stuff, for example, might not fit well in some contexts.
Secondly, like Wheat wrote, he might just be a little intimidated by your skills and feels like you are stealing his thunder. If so, tread lightly and enjoy yourself without making a big deal of it. When you become unhappy with the situation, back off gently. Burn no bridges.
Personally, when someone tells me to stick with roots, I just do it. I want to play, period. However, I still use fills and other things to color the music a bit, but without being obvious. Sometimes subtlety can make a big statement.
There are two churches that I've played for that are miles apart on this issue. One is very conservative music-wise and insists that my bass parts stay very "rooty" and that I do not stray from the chord chart in any way. No bumping the lines or fancy fills are encouraged, and syncopated work is out of the question. The second church just chomps at the bit for me to come play with them. They dig my work and basically allow me the freedom to express myself musically. I do all kinds of crazed stuff there and they love it.
The funny thing is that in both of these situations, I am playing the same songs for the most part. It is just that the personalities of the band leaders are dramatically different. Actually, there is not a solid "band leader" at the second church--it is very collaborative there, but we all have the same goal.
I personally like playing both, but I tend to lean more toward working with the second bunch because the room to express myself is greater.
BoH
Opinions are like truss rods. Everyone has one and it's always getting twisted!
Bo
You don't love me, you just love my FINGERSTYLE!
Peavey T40; SX/Squier P-bass; Spector Legend 5
Roland Bass 30 Cube
Well Bo, the guitarist
Well Bo, the guitarist mentality is not one I learned but one I have had since the first day I picked up a bass. I started out on guitar wanting to be the next Jimmy Page/Tony Iommi but after I picked up my first bass I decided that I would prefer to be the next J.P.J./G. Butler etc. etc. etc. Since then I have always played my basses like guitars only down in the rumble zone.
I am always having an internal battle, the calm,peaceful side says "Now just stay right there in the pocket, your doing a fine job." and the animalistic, adrenaline feed side is saying, "What the hell man? let 'er rip! Get that growling monster out front and never look back!!!" Although at times the later of the two is perfect.
He did say, about my first take, that the bass seemed to be fighting with the vocals. So my second had less notes, mainly I stuck with triplets and let everything ringout. 1/8 notes turned to half, 1/4 were now whole and I only had one or two hammer-ons the entire time. I think my undoing of the second take was I mixed the bass track a bit soft. I have a problem of mixing it so it really stands out but for something that is not based around the bass that is not always a good thing.
As I said to Pete, I am not in this guys band, just trying to get him a decent bass line. I could never be in a band that I did not have a lot of pull when it came time to decide the direction a tune would go. I will also add, I did not take it as a dig on me or my playing but rather he is the composer and this is his tune so it should head towards a sound that he is looking for.
HAZ
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"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."
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"Carburetors man!! That's what life is all about."
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Communicate
In that case, just go with what he wants. I misread the intent of your original post...apologies. If you're not sure about it, pick his brain until you get a clear answer. Some folks just say "play roots" and expect you to fill in the blanks.
THe bottom line is that you need to keep an open line of communication with him and make sure you keep him happy. It will go a long way toward any recommendations this fellow could pass on.
Bo
Bo
You don't love me, you just love my FINGERSTYLE!
Peavey T40; SX/Squier P-bass; Spector Legend 5
Roland Bass 30 Cube
Funny thing Bo, I did not
Funny thing Bo, I did not get that you misread but rather just delving into your experiances and giving advice. No worries either way.
As for keeping an open line of communication, that is what I am trying and right now I have the ball on his side of the court so we wil see what happens.
Cheers
HAZ
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"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Carburetors man!! That's what life is all about."
Musicians Collaboration Studio
The role you play...
Yeah, it all comes down to the role you're playing (and willing to play) in any given situation. If your goal is to help someone else realize his/her vision of a song, then you'll take comments as serious direction, as if you were being paid to do a session. If it's a more democratic situation, where you're expected to come up with your own lines both for the sake of the band and for the sake of contributing something personal, that ends up being a different situations and one where I would be less willing to bend and more willing to trust my own instincts.
Ah, the beauties of solo projects! Now I'm the only one who gets to decide what's enough and what's too much movement, in the bass line or in any other part. :)
Wheat
bassplaying.com
Well this is somewhat of a
Well this is somewhat of a combination of the two. I need to come up with a bass line but he gets to decide if it works for him. So far he does not like either line and I have tried to give him what he wants.
Anyways, he decided to go with his own line (actually I think it is one played by another guitarist who he is friends with) and from what I can hear (he has the bass mixed very low) he is hitting the root throughout the verses and does a decending walk back down to the root when transitioning to the chourus/bridge and then just hits the root again.
Thanks for all the advice/tips, much appreciated.
HAZ
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"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."
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"Carburetors man!! That's what life is all about."
Musicians Collaboration Studio